Xunzi is famous for the claim that “human nature is bad.” But what does he mean by this, and if goodness does not come naturally to us, where does it come from?

In this episode, we discuss Xunzi’s distinction between nature (xing 性) and deliberate effort (wei 偽), his disagreement with Mencius, and his view that moral goodness must be “learned” and “worked at.” We also ask how sharp the distinction between the natural and the artificial really is, and consider Xunzi’s comparison of moral cultivation to crafts like pottery and woodworking. If we are shaped through deliberate effort, are we both the material being shaped and the ones doing the shaping?

Key passages

     First passage: The division between nature and deliberate effort

孟子曰：「人之學者，其性善。」曰：是不然！是不及知人之性，而不察乎人之性偽之分者也。凡性者，天之就也，不可學，不可事。禮義者，聖人之所生也，人之所學而能，所事而成者也。不可學、不可事而在人者，謂之性。可學而能、可事而成之在人者，謂之偽。是性偽之分也。今人之性，目可以見，耳可以聽；夫可以見之明不離目，可以聽之聰不離耳，目明而耳聰，不可學明矣。

Mencius says: When people engage in learning, this manifests the goodness of their nature. I say: This is not so. This is a case of not attaining knowledge of people’s nature and of not inspecting clearly the division between people’s nature and their deliberate efforts. In every case, the nature of a thing is the accomplishment of Heaven. It cannot be learned. It cannot be worked at. Ritual and rightness are what the sage produces. They are things that people become capable of through learning, things that are achieved through working at them. Those things in people which cannot be learned and cannot be worked at are called their “nature.” Those things in people which they become capable of through learning and which they achieve through working at them are called their “deliberate efforts.” This is the division between nature and deliberate effort. Now people’s nature is such that their eyes can see, and their ears can hear. The brightness by which they see does not depart from their eyes, and the acuity by which they hear does not depart from their ears. Their eyes are simply bright, and their ears are simply acute. One does not learn this brightness.

(Xunzi, chapter 23, lines 43-55; slightly modified from Eric Hutton’s translation)

     Second passage: How the sages produced the rituals

問者曰：「人之性惡，則禮義惡生？」應之曰：凡禮義者，是生於聖人之偽，非故生於人之性也。故陶人埏埴而為器，然則器生於陶人之偽，非故生於人之性也。故工人斲木而成器，然則器生於工人之偽，非故生於人之性也。聖人積思慮，習偽故，以生禮義而起法度。然則禮義法度者，是生於聖人之偽，非故生於人之性也。

Someone asks: if people’s nature is bad, then from what are ritual and rightness produced? I answer: In every case, ritual and rightness are produced from the deliberate effort of the sage; they are not produced from people’s nature. Thus, when the potter mixes up clay and makes vessels, the vessels are produced from the deliberate efforts of the craftsman; they are not produced from people’s nature. Thus, when the craftsman carves wood and makes utensils, the utensils are produced from the deliberate efforts of the craftsman; they are not produced from people’s nature. The sage accumulates reflections and thoughts and practices deliberate efforts and reasoned activities in order to produce ritual and rightness and in order to establish proper models and measures. So, ritual and rightness and proper models and measures are produced from the deliberate efforts of the sage; they are not produced from people’s nature.

(Xunzi, chapter 23, lines 92-105; slightly modified from Eric Hutton’s translation)

Sources and phrases mentioned

• Breaking Bad (a very popular TV show set in Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA)
• Philip J. Ivanhoe, “Filial Piety as a Virtue“
• Xunzi 荀子 (“Master Xun,” 3^rd century BCE, our featured Confucian philosopher)
• virtue politics
• “人之性惡，其善者偽也。” (“People’s nature is bad. Their goodness is a matter of deliberate effort.” This Hutton’s translation of an oft-repeated phrase from Xunzi’s “Human Nature is Bad,” ch. 23)
• xing’e 性惡 (“human nature is bad”)
• Augustinian evil, doing bad for the sake of being bad
• Paul Bloom, Just Babies (describes and synthesizes numerous studies of “baby morality”)
• Mencius (Mengzi 孟子, 4th century BCE)
• xing 性 (human nature), wei 偽 (deliberate effort, conscious effort, human artifice)
• xue 學 (“learning”), shi 事 (“working at [something]”)
• Tian zhi jiu 天之就 (“the accomplishment of Heaven”)
• Philip J. Ivanhoe, “Human Nature and Moral Understanding in the Xunzi“
• T.C. Kline III, “Moral Agency and Motivation in the Xunzi” (source of the phrase “outside-in” to describe Xunzi’s model of moral cultivation)
• Jesse Prinz, Beyond Human Nature (reports on empirical evidence for the more Xunzian view)
• Eric Hutton, “Does Xunzi have a Consistent Theory of Human Nature?“
• Siufu Tang 鄧小虎, “Xing and Xunzi’s Understanding of Our Nature“
• Michael Tomasello, A Natural History of Human Morality
• li yi 禮義 (rituals and rightness)
• Harry G. Frankfurt, “Freedom of the Will and the Concept of the Person” (on “second-order desires”)
• Chen Daqi 陳大齊,  《孔孟荀學說》 (in juan 1 of this collection)
• Paul Rakita Goldin, Rituals of the Way
• Siufu Tang 鄧小虎, Self-Realization through Confucian Learning
• the characters xing 性 (nature) and sheng 生 (life)