One influential justification for becoming Buddhist is to end suffering, starting (it seems) with the Buddhist practitioner’s own suffering. Does this indicate that Buddhist practitioners are selfish? After Buddhism became popular in China, many Confucians argued that Buddhism puts personal salvation before ethics, and is thus selfish in that respect. Some Confucians also objected to the particular sort of compassion that Buddhists were supposed to adopt (“unconditioned compassion”), insisting that it was fundamentally incompatible with the special attachments needed for important human relationships between family members and close friends.

In our first show before a live audience, Justin presents two criticisms of Buddhism, Jenny Hung 洪真如 defends Buddhism against the criticisms, and Richard moderates. The show was held at a meeting of the American Philosophical Association, and many wiser experts in the audience weighed in as well. Join us for the lively (and quite friendly) “debate.”

Impressed by the quality of the audio recording? We are grateful for the help of the Dana Jae Audio Collective for their professional staging and recording of the event.

Key passages

Lu Xiangshan 陸象山 (1139-1193) on Buddhist selfishness

釋氏以人生天地間，有生死，有輪迴，有煩惱，以為甚苦，而求所以免之。其有得道明悟者，則知本無生死，本無輪迴，本無煩惱，故其言曰：生死事大。如兄所謂菩薩發心者，亦只為此一大事，其教之所從立者如此。故曰利、曰私。

When Buddhists consider the life human beings live between Heaven and earth, they say that there is a [cycle of] life and death, transmigration and rebirth, and suffering and affliction. They regard it as a state of extreme suffering and seek a way to avoid it. According to them, those who have attained the Way and achieved enlightenment realize that originally there is no life and death, transmigration and rebirth, or suffering and affliction. This is why their teachings claim [the cycle of] “life and death is the great affair.” The so-called resolution to become a bodhisattva…also concerns just this one great affair. This is the foundation upon which Buddhist teachings have been established, and why I say they concern what is personally beneficial and selfish.

惟義惟公，故經世；惟利惟私，故出世。儒者雖至於無聲無臭，無方無體，皆主於經世。釋氏雖盡未來際普度之，皆主於出世。

Because [Confucians] are concerned only with righteousness and the public [good], they seek to put the world into good order. Because [Buddhists] are concerned only with profit and selfish [good], they seek to flee the world [completely]. Although Confucian [teachings] talk about “what is without sound or scent” and “what is beyond location and embodiment,” their guiding aim always is to put the world into good order. Although Buddhist [teachings] talk about saving all sentient creatures, even those yet to be born, their guiding aim always is to flee the world [completely].

今習釋氏者皆人也，彼既為人，亦安能盡棄吾儒之仁義？彼雖出家，亦上報四恩。日用之間，此理之根諸心而不可泯滅者，彼固或存之也。然其為教，非為欲存此而起也。故其存不存，不足為深造其道者輕重。

Now those who practice the Way of the Buddha are all human beings. Since they are human beings, how can they completely cast off the benevolence and righteousness that we Confucians [advocate]? Even though they leave their families, they still advocate practicing the four kindnesses. In their everyday lives, Pattern [an ethical ground and source] remains rooted in their minds and cannot be eradicated or erased. They clearly preserve it, at least in certain respects. Nevertheless, their teachings were not developed with the aim of preserving it. And so, whether or not it is preserved is of no importance to those who are far advanced in practicing their Way.

(Lu Xiangshan, “Letter to Wang Shunbo” 〈與王順伯〉, modified from Philip J. Ivanhoe’s translation)

Zhu Xi 朱熹 (1130-1200) on unconditioned compassion:

先生曰：「釋氏說『無緣慈』。記得甚處說：『融性起無緣之大慈。』蓋佛氏之所謂慈，並無緣由，只是無所不愛。若如愛親之愛，渠便以為有緣；故父母棄而不養，而遇虎之飢餓，則捨身以食之，此何義理耶？」

[A student proposes to Zhu Xi that Buddhist kindness and compassion are a kind of “care without distinctions” – that is, Buddhists assume that ideal compassion expresses the same sort of care or concern for all beings, regardless of their relationship to oneself.]

The teacher responded: “The Buddhists recommend ‘unconditioned compassion.’ I can recall a place in a text in which [the Buddhist author] describes ‘the great compassion that originates from the nature, which is unconditioned.’ This is because what the Buddhists call compassion arises in the absence of any conditions, and simply is care directed at all things. As for the case of caring for one’s parents, they rashly take that to be subject to conditions. And so they abandon their parents and fail to nurture them but if they encounter a starving tiger they will sacrifice their bodies in order to feed it. How could this possibly be morally correct?”

(Zhu Xi, The Classified Sayings of Master Zhu 《朱子語類》, juan 126, modified from Justin’s translation)

Sources and phrases mentioned

• Jenny Hung 洪真如 (our guest)
• zhenru 真如 (Tathātā, “true thusness,” “true suchness” — a key Buddhist term and Jenny’s personal name in Chinese)
• John Rawls (hugely influential political philosopher)
• Uri Kaplan, Buddhist Apologetics in East Asia
• Zongmi 宗密 (Guifeng Zongmi 圭峰宗密, 780-841, Tang-dynasty Buddhist philosopher)
• Jenny Hung, “We are the Same Mind! A Study of Zongmi’s Idea of the True Mind“
• si 私 (selfish, self-centered)
• chujia 出家 (“leave the family,” i.e., join a monastic Buddhist community, become a Buddhist monk or nun)
• The Four Noble Truths
• bodhisattva 菩提薩埵
• Mahāyāna Buddhism (contrasted with Theravāda Buddhism or Hīnayāna Buddhism, more committed to bodhisattvahood)
• Lu Xiangshan 陸象山 (also known as Lu Jiuyuan 陸九淵, 1139–1192, a Neo-Confucian philosopher)
• saṃsāra (the world as we know it, the cycle of life and death)
• tathāgatagarbha (Buddha-embryo, Buddha-nature, a distinctive and foundation concept for many Chinese Buddhists, including Zongmi)
• “conventional truth” vs. “ultimate truth” in Buddhism
• sudden enlightenment vs. gradual enlightenment or gradual practice
• The Lotus Sutra
• Justin Tiwald, “Zhu Xi’s Critique of Buddhism“
• unconditioned compassion (wuyuan ci 無緣慈 or wuyuan daci 無緣大慈, contrasted with “conditioned compassion” youyuan ci 有緣慈)
• chan/zen 禪 (as in “Chan Buddhism“)
• differentiated care (ai you chadeng 愛有差等, “care comes with distinctions”)
• śīla (Sanskrit term for Buddhist ethics or ethical discipline)
• Prince Sattva (the source of the story about the bodhisattva who gave his own body and life to feed a tiger — thanks to PJ Ivanhoe for this reference)
• xiangyue 鄉約 (village compact, community covenant — an important component of Zhu Xi’s political and social philosophy for local communities)
• jingshi 經世 (putting the world in order)
• chushi 出世 (fleeing the world)