This episode is our first on the classical Confucian philosopher Xunzi 荀子 (3rd century BCE), who was famous for arguing that human nature is bad and for casting doubt on the more supernatural or superstitious justifications for traditional Confucian rituals, among many other things. Since this is the first episode on an important philosopher, we spend some time in part I discussing his “big picture” philosophical worldview. In part II, we turn to the following question: does Xunzi think of the Confucian Way as something that sages discover or invent? A little reflection on this question shows that it has major implications for how we think about ethics and its foundations, and how much ethical values depend on human convention.

Key passage

“Fording a River”

水行者表深，表不明則陷。治民者表道，表不明則亂。禮者，表也。非禮，昏世也；昏世，大亂也。故道無不明，外內異表，隱顯有常，民陷乃去。

Those who cross waters mark out the deep places, but if the markers are not clear, people will fall in. Those who order the people mark out the Way, but if the markers are not clear, there will be chaos. The rituals are those markers. To reject ritual is to bemuddle the world, and to bemuddle the world is to create great chaos. And so, when the Way is in no part unclear, and that which is within the bounds and that which is outside the bounds have different markers, and that which is inglorious and that which is illustrious have constant measures, then the pitfalls of the people will be eliminated.

(Xunzi, chapter 17, lines 237-46, Eric Hutton’s translation; note that there’s a similar passage in chapter 27)

Sources and phrases mentioned

• Jonathan Rauch, The Constitution of Knowledge
• the ad hominem fallacy
• Thrasymachus, as depicted in Plato’s Republic
• Xunzi 荀子 (“Master Xun,” 3^rd century BCE, our featured Confucian philosopher)
• xing’e 性惡 (“human nature is bad”)
• Li Si 李斯 (Legalist chancellor, whom historical accounts describe as a student of Xunzi)
• Han Feizi 韓非子 (Legalist philosopher, also believed to be a student of Xunzi)
• Qin dynasty 秦朝 (221-206 BCE)
• T.C. Kline III and Justin Tiwald, Ritual and Religion in the Xunzi
• yi 義 (rightness, right action, righteousness)
• li 禮 (rites, ritual, ritual propriety, social protocol meant to show respect)
• metaethics (the study of the foundations of ethics)
• Philip J. Ivanhoe, Chinese Language, Thought, and Culture: Nivison and His Critics (book in which Nivison discusses what we called the “first sage problem”)
• T.C. Kline III, “Moral Agency and Motivation in the Xunzi” (also addresses the first sage problem)
• xianwang 先王 (former king[s], the people who lay down the markers in chapter 27’s version of the “fording a river passage”)
• the constructivist interpretation (holds that the Way is “invented”)
• the realist interpretation (holds that there are truths about the Way that aren’t grounded in human convention, the Way is “discovered”)
• “There are not two Ways for the world, and the sage is not of two minds” (天下無二道，聖人無兩心) (Xunzi, ch. 21)
• Xunzi, ch. 5 (passage that suggests that there have been different models put forth by sages of different eras)
• Further reading on the “discovered or invented?” question:
  • Paul Goldin’s Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on Xunzi, section 5, “Is the Way Discovered or Constructed?”
  • Eric Hutton and Kurtis Hagen debate the constructivist interpretation in the journal Dao, vol. 6 no. 4 (2007) — see Hutton’s book review, Hagen’s reply, and Hutton’s further response
  • Siufu TANG, Self-Realization Through Confucian Learning and “Metaphysics of Normative Values: Metaethical Constructivism and Xunzi“
  • David Wong, “Xunzi’s Metaethics“