Is music an extravagance in a world of scarcity or a necessary expression of our humanity? We explore Mozi’s consequentialist condemnation of elaborate musical performances and Xunzi’s argument that music, proper guided, plays a critical role in taming unruly emotions and building social bonds. Beneath the disagreement lies a profound clash over basic human goods, how emotion should be shaped, and whether the arts are dispensable or essential to human flourishing.

Key passages

     Passage 1: Mozi’s Condemnation of Musical Performances

子墨子言曰：「仁之事者，必務求興天下之利，除天下之害，將以為法乎天下。利人乎，即為；不利人乎，即止。且夫仁者之為天下度也，非為其目之所美，耳之所樂，口之所甘，身體之所安，以此虧奪民衣食之財，仁者弗為也。」。。。

Our teacher Mozi says, “The benevolent surely are those who devote themselves to finding ways to promote what is beneficial to the world while eliminating what is harmful; this is why they are proper models for human conduct throughout the world. If something benefits the world then they will do it. If it does not benefit the world then they will stop doing it. Moreover, when the benevolent think about the people of the world, if there is something that attracts their eyes, delights their ears, pleases their palates, and gives comfort to their bodies but this thing can only be gotten by sacrificing the people’s stock of food and clothing, they will not engage in it.”…

。。。是故子墨子曰：「今天下士君子，請將欲求興天下之利，除天下之害，當在樂之為物，將不可不禁而止也。」

…This is why our teacher Mozi says, “If men of rank and the gentlemen of the world really want to promote what is beneficial to the world and eliminate what is harmful to it, then they will prohibit and put an end to this thing called music!”

(Mozi, ch. 32, “A Condemnation of Musical Performances,” Ivanhoe’s translation)

     Passage 2: Xunzi’s Defense of Music

夫樂者、樂也，人情之所必不免也。故人不能無樂，樂則必發於聲音，形於動靜；而人之道，聲音動靜，性術之變盡是矣。故人不能不樂，樂則不能無形，形而不為道，則不能無亂。先王惡其亂也，故制雅頌之聲以道之，使其聲足以樂而不流，使其文足以辨而不諰，使其曲直繁省廉肉節奏，足以感動人之善心，使夫邪污之氣無由得接焉。是先王立樂之方也，而墨子非之奈何！

Music is joy, an unavoidable human disposition. So, people cannot be without music; if they feel joy, they must express it in sound and give it shape in movement. The way of human beings is that changes in the motions of their nature are completely contained in these sounds and movements. So, people cannot be without joy, and their joy cannot be without shape, but if it takes shape and does not accord with the Way, then there will inevitably be chaos. The former kings hated such chaos, and therefore they established the sounds of the Ya and the Song in order to guide them. They caused the sounds to be enjoyable without becoming excessive. They caused the patterns to be recognizable without becoming degenerate. They caused the progression, complexity, intensity, and rhythm of the music to be sufficient to move the goodness in people’s hearts. They caused perverse and corrupt qi to have no place to attach itself to them. This is the manner in which the former kings created music, and so what is Mozi doing denouncing it?

故樂在宗廟之中，君臣上下同聽之，則莫不和敬；閨門之內，父子兄弟同聽之，則莫不和親；鄉里族長之中，長少同聽之，則莫不和順。故樂者審一以定和者也，比物以飾節者也，合奏以成文者也；足以率一道，足以治萬變。是先王立樂之術也，而墨子非之奈何！

And so, when music is performed in the ancestral temple and the ruler and ministers, superiors and inferiors, listen to it together, there are none who do not become harmoniously respectful. When it is performed within the home and father and sons, elder and younger brothers listen to it together, there are none who do not become harmoniously affectionate. And when it is performed in the village, and old and young people listen to it together, there are none who do not become harmoniously cooperative. Thus, music observes a single standard in order to fix its harmony, it brings together different instruments in order to ornament its rhythm, and it combines their playing in order to achieve a beautiful pattern. It is sufficient to lead people in a single, unified way, and is sufficient to bring order to the myriad changes within them. This is the method by which the former kings created music, and so what is Mozi doing denouncing it?

(Xunzi, , chapter 20, “Discourse on Music,” Eric Hutton’s translation, lines 1-31)

   Passage 3: Mozi’s “House Analogy” (on the intrinsic value of enjoying music)

子墨子曰問於儒者：「何故為樂？」曰：「樂以為樂也。」子墨子曰：「子未我應也。今我問曰：『何故為室？』曰：『冬避寒焉，夏避暑焉，室以為男女之別也。』則子告我為室之故矣。今我問曰：『何故為樂？』曰：『樂以為樂也。』是猶曰『何故為室』？曰『室以為室也』。」

Mozi asked a Confucian, “What reason is there for performing music?” The reply was, “Music is performed for music’s sake.” [Alternative translation: “Music is performed for the sake of enjoying music.”] Mozi said, “You have not yet answered my question. Suppose I ask you ‘What is the reason for building houses?’ And you answer, ‘To keep off the cold in winter, the heat in summer and to separate men and women.’ Then you have told me the reason for building houses. Now I am asking you ‘What reason is there for performing music?’ and you answer ‘Music is performed for music’s sake.’ This is like me asking ‘What reason is there for building houses?’ and you answering, ‘Houses are built for house’s sake.’”

(Mozi, ch. 48, section 13, “Gong Meng,” slightly modified from W.P. Mei’s translation)

Sources and phrases mentioned

• Musicians and songs mentioned in Part I:
  • U2, REM, Green Day, Everclear, Live, Taylor Swift, Hootie and the Blowfish, Notorious B.I.G., Blues Traveler, Tupac Shakur
  • Tim Kasher (of the bands Cursive and The Good Life)
  • Bright Eyes
  • Saddle Creek Records (music label)
  • Cat Power, “Metal Heart“
  • Gillian Welch, “Wrecking Ball“
  • Screaming Females, “Shake It Off” (cover of a song by Taylor Swift)
  • H.O.T.
  • Drunken Tiger
  • Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Chopin
  • Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Miles Davis
  • John Denver, “Take Me Home, Country Roads“
• Whiplash (film about a drummer striving to emulate Buddy Rich)
• Mohism
• Confucianism
• Warring States period
• Mozi 墨子 (c. 470-c. 391 BCE)
• Xunzi 荀子 (3rd century BCE)
• Li Zehou 李澤厚 (1930-2021)
• “hermeneutics of suspicion” vs. “hermeneutics of faith“
• The “three standards” (or “three models,” sanfa 三法) — three success criteria for arguments in Mohism
• Hui-chieh LOY, “Justification and Debate: Thoughts on Moist Moral Epistemology“
• “consequentialism” (the view that the right action is the one that maximizes some good [e.g., “benefit”] across the human or other specified population)
• Erica Fox Brindley, Music, Cosmology, and the Politics of Harmony in Early China
• Yueji 樂記 (“The Record of Music,” a chapter of the Confucian text, Liji 禮記, the Rites or Record of Ritual)
• Zheng music (Zheng 鄭), music that some classical thinkers condemned as problematic of licentious, associated with the ancient state of Zheng 鄭
• Philip J. Ivanhoe, Confucian Reflections (see chapter 4 for a contemporary defense of Confucian views about music)
• Victor Hugo’s, Les Misérables (a novel, which was eventually turned into a popular musical)
• “We Shall Overcome,” a Christian gospel song closely associated with the U.S. civil rights movement
• yue/le 樂 (the Chinese character that can be translated both as “music” and as “joy”)
• Sun Yirang 孫詒讓, Qing-dynasty Mozi commentator
• “utilitarianism” ([1] a term that can refer to a theory of normative ethics or [2], less technically, reflecting the attitude that basic needs or functional goods are vastly more important than other, more “aesthetic” goods)
• schadenfreude (pleasure from enjoying the misfortune of others)
• Daniel A. Bell, Why Ancient Chinese Political Thought Matters (see chapter 3 for a 21st-century reprise of the classical debate about music)
• Peter Singer, “Famine, Affluence, and Morality” (an article that Richard referenced near the end of the episode)
• Episode 27 and Episode 28 (on Mohist and Confucian arguments for and against “impartial caring” and Mohist consequentialism)